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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Topic: Jewish golden era
    Posted: 27 June 2010 at 8:13am
 
I saw this article but since it's wiki...
 
"... refers to a period of history during the Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula (the former Roman and Visigothic Hispania) in which Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed."
 
Anyway, they must have forgotten about their history.
 


Edited by Traveller - 27 June 2010 at 8:25am
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a well wisher  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2010 at 10:29am
Yes that was the time of La Convivencia –  its a Spanish term which means living together harmoniously....Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together and benefited from the presence of each other....It was a time of multiculturalism and celebrating diversity...Each group contributed greatly to the prosperity and flavour of Andalusia....exceptional times...mutual respect and an appreciation of art, science, scholarship....fruitful coexistence because of tolerance not too long ago in history ...There are many reminders to that rich past and Ive heard that traces of that culture can still be seen in Spain today...
 
 


Edited by a well wisher - 27 June 2010 at 10:49am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2010 at 11:56am
Who's not to say there were  periods of relative co-existence throughout history .. with the relative words here being "relative" and "co-existence"?  That doesn't mean everything was as it should be or fair or even livable, it simply means relative to the time and circumstance.  From it we learn.   
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2010 at 11:36pm
I think we need to understand that there facts being ignored here. The Jews and Christians who had been unfortunate enough to live as second-class dhimmis ("protected" or "guilty" people) under the Islamic state were routinely humiliated, overtaxed, derided, dispossessed, and were helpless to defend themselves from Muslim wrath or cruelty. This is the fulfillment of sura 9:29 and it is a matter of historical record, contrary to the cynical claims of a multicultural facade of Islamic tolerance that simply did not exist in Muslim occupied Spain. The People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who scraped by under their Muslim overlords weren't "living in peace," as muslims would portray. They lived in fear and misery. The money extorted from them—the jizya poll tax—in exchange for being allowed to cower in their homes, practicing their faith out of sight, was used to fund the jihad war chest. When they couldn't pay the jizya, they were sometimes compelled to give up their children who were converted to Islam or enslaved. If they were found guilty of breaking their covenant of "protection" with the Islamic state (a guilt which was all but assured, seeing as they had no standing in a shari'ah court against a Muslim), they were executed or sold into slavery.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 12:58am
In Islam, a dhimmi is not "a second class citizen"as you claim. In fact, in most cases they used to pay less tax than Muslims, as jizyah does not apply to women, children, the elderly and the poor (only men who are able to join the army).

When this was applied, a dhimmi used to be a non-Muslim living in a Muslim state who was under the protection of Muslims, and therefore he was not required to join the army to defend his country.

In return for this protection, a dhimmi would pay a small tax (2 dinars per year), in the same way that Muslims pay the zakah tax to the state (2.5% of annual savings). The proof from history is that in the area of Sham (currently Syria), Muslims in one of the cities were unable to defend it from the advancing enemy for being outnumbered. They decided to evacuate the city, and before doing so they refunded non-Muslims who had paid jizya the money they paid as they could no longer protect them.

In today's modern world, non-Muslims join Muslims in the army to protect their countries, and therefore the jizya system is no longer applied.


As for freedom of religion, Jews and Christians were free to practice their faiths, as the Qur'an is very clear on that from the following quotes: (the should be no compulsion in religion) - (say the truth from your Lord; whoever wills let him believe and whoever will let him disbelieve) - (for you is your religion, and for me is my religion).

When we mention the golden age of Jews in Andalusia, one of the important Jewish scholars come to mind: Maimonides (1135–1205)


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 1:23am
Hello and Welcome to the Forum Brother Kadhim
 
The passage you have quoted is from the book The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam (Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickenson University Press, 1985) written by Bat Ye'or...She has recently become very popular with anti Islam sites esp Robert Spencer (need we say more) but a person looking for objective truth would atleast care to look further...

According to journalist Adi Schwartz from Haaretz, the fact that she is not an academic and has never taught at any university, but has worked as an independent researcher, has, along with her opinions, made her a controversial figure. He quotes professor Robert Wistrich, head of the Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, who notes that "p until the 1980s, she was not accepted at all. In academic circles they scorned her publications. Only when Bernard Lewis published the book 'Jews of Islam' with quotations from Bat Ye'or did they begin to pay any attention to her. A real change toward her emerged in the 1990s, and especially in recent years."[38]

Craig R. Smith in a New York Times article referred to her as one of the "most extreme voices on the new Jewish right."[39]

Johann Hari, a British journalist, argues that "There are intellectuals on the British right who are propagating a conspiracy theory about Muslims that teeters very close to being a 21st century Protocols of the Elders of Mecca" and that Bat Ye'or is a "scholar" who argues that Europe is on the brink of being transformed into a conquered continent called "Eurabia".[40]

Israeli peace activist Adam Keller—a founder of Gush Shalom— in a letter of protest sent on June 2, 2008 to the Israeli publisher of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, wrote:

In 1886 the French antisemite Edouard Drumont published 'La France Juive' (Jewish France), creating the false nightmarish image of a France dominated by Jews, and sowing the poisonous seeds which came to fruit when Vichy French officials collaborated in the mass murder of French Jewry. [...] 'Bat Ye'or' follows in notorious footsteps indeed by creating the false nightmarish image of a Europe dominated by Arabs and Muslims.[41]

According to David Aaronovitch:

[Eurabia] is a concept created by a writer called Bat Ye’or who, according to the publicity for her most recent book, "chronicles Arab determination to subdue Europe as a cultural appendage to the Muslim world — and Europe's willingness to be so subjugated". This, as students of conspiracy theories will recognise, is the addition of the Sad Dupes thesis to the Enemy Within idea.[42]

 
 
As for the term Dhimmi , Dhimmi means “protected person” and in no way, shape, or form means “guilty.”here’s what Lisan al-Arab (considered the most reliable Arabic dictionary in the classical age of Islam) says:

ورجل ذِمِّيٌّ: معناه رجل له عهد

(Dhimmi: A person with whom there exists a treaty)

والذِّمَّةُ العهد

(And ‘dhimmah’ means treaty)

قال الجوهري: الذِّمَّةُ أَهل العقد.

(Al-Jawhari says: Dhimmah refers to the people with whom there is a treaty)

وقال أَبو عبيدة الذِّمّةُ الأَمان

(Abu Ubaydah says: Dhimmah means protection/security)

وقوم ذِمَّةٌ: مُعاهدون أَي ذوو ذِمَّةٍ

(A Nation of Dhimmah: The people who sign a treaty, i.e. the people of ‘responsibility’)

 

Try giving Nissim Rejwan's - Israel’s Place in the Middle East: A Pluralistic Perspective a read for a balanced perspective.... Nissim Rejwan is a Research Fellow at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. His book won the 1998 National Jewish Book Award for Israel Studies...

Here's what he writes about Jews in Muslim lands...

Under Ottoman Islam, which by the beginning of the sixteenth century dominated Syria [including Palestine] and Eygpt, the conditions under which the Jews were permitted to live contrasted so strikingly with those imposed on their coreligionists in various parts of Christendom that the fifteenth century witnessed a large influx of European Jews into the [Ottoman] Sultan’s dominions. During the first half of that century, persecutions had occurred in Bohemia, Austria, and Poland, and, at about this time, two German rabbis who sought and secured refuge in the Ottoman Empire wrote a letter to their community extolling the beauties and advantages of their new home.

But it was the measures taken against the Jews in Spain, culminating in their expulsion in 1492, that gave the greatest momentum to this migration. The Jews who chose to settle in various parts of the [Ottoman] empire found their surroundings rather congenial, and they, in turn contributed greatly to the flowering of Ottoman civilization…Marranos, who in Christian Spain had embraced Christianity to escape persecution and death, abandoned their disguise and returned to Judaism. Istanbul soon came to harbor the largest Jewish community in the whole of Europe, while Salonika became a predominantly Jewish city. The degree of the Jews’ integration into the life of Ottoman Islam was such, indeed, that two notable non-Jewish students of modern Islam found that there has been, in their words, “something sympathetic to the Jewish nature in the culture of Islam,” since “from the rise of the Caliphate till the abolition of the ghettos in Europe the most flourishing centers of Jewish life were to be found in Muslim countries: in Iraq during the Abbassid period, in Spain throughout the period of Moorish domination, and thereafter in the Ottoman Empire.”

…At the turn of the eighteenth century, the Jewish community in Jerusalem experienced a growth in numbers at an inordinate rate…According to a recent study by Tudor Parfitt, however, the startling increase in Jewish immigration to Jerusalem in the nineteenth century took place “not because the attraction of Jerusalem as the holy city grew, but because political and other factors made such immigration increasingly possible.”

…In nineteenth-century Palestine, he adds, such tolerance was “a consistent part of the relationship between the Ottoman authorities and the Jews.” He quotes European travelers as remarking on “the perfect religious freedom” that prevailed…One of these travelers, J. Wilson, is quoted as saying that “entire freedom of worship…is now accorded to [the Jews] and they are left to manage their own internal affairs without interference from any other quarter.” …

By way of conclusion, a word of caution is in order…It must be pointed out that the picture has not been uniformly so rosy and that instances of religious intolerance toward and discriminatory treatment of Jews under Islam are by no means difficult to find. This point is of special relevance at a time in which, following a reawakening of interest in the history of Arab-Jewish relations among Jewish writers and intellectuals, certain interested circles have been trying to…[question the] Judeo-Arabic tradition or symbiosis by digging up scattered pieces of evidence to show that Islam is essentially intolerant…and that Muslims’ contempt for Jews was even greater and more deep-seated than that manifested by Christians…

Such caricatures of the history of Jews under Islam continue to be disseminated by scholars as well as by interested publicists and ideologues. Indeed, all discussion of relations between Jews and Muslims…is beset by the most burning emotions and by highly charged sensitivities. In their eagerness to repudiate the generally accepted version of these relations (a version which, it is worthwhile pointing out, originates not in Muslim books of history but with Jewish historians and Orientalists in nineteenth-century Europe), certain partisan students of the Middle East conflict today seem to go out of their way to show that, far from being the record of harmonious coexistence it is often claimed to be, the story of Jewish-Muslim relations since the time of Muhammad was “a sorry array of conquest, massacre, subjection, spoilation in goods and women and children, contempt, expulsion–[and] even the yellow badge…”

Informed by a fervor seldom encountered in scholarly discourse, some of these latter-day historians have gone so far as to question even the motives of those European-Jewish scholars of the past century who virtually founded modern Oriental and Arabic studies and managed to unearth the impressive legacy of Judeo-Arabic culture, a culture that was undeniably an outcome of a long and symbiotic encounter between Muslims and Jews.

…[But] by the standards then prevailing–and they are plainly the only ones by which a historian is entitled to pass judgment–Spanish Islamic tolerance was no myth but a reality of which present-day Muslim Arabs are fully justified in reminding their contemporaries…Tolerance, then, is a highly relative concept, and the only sensible way of gauging the extent of tolerance in a given society or culture in a given age is to compare it with that prevailing in other societies and cultures in the same period…

Or you can read Prof.Mark R Cohen's Book -Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages to get an unbiased understanding if it interests you

God bless And Peace



Edited by a well wisher - 28 June 2010 at 1:25am
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shamstar  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 8:34am
Good post Well Wisher.  Nasty people try to re-write history to fit in with their agenda, but truth will always prevail.
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 10:50am
Yes, life was grand, just larrapin'.   Quote from Al-cordoby's post re Rambam:

"The Almohades from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[8] Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile. For the next ten years they moved about in southern Spain, avoiding the conquering Almohades, but eventually settled in Fez in Morocco, where he studied at the University of Al-Karaouine. During this time, he composed his acclaimed commentary on the Mishnah in the years 1166–1168.[9]"

^ a b 1954 Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 18, p. 140.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Grotham

Yes, life was grand, just larrapin'.   Quote from Al-cordoby's post re Rambam:

"The Almohades from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[8] Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile. For the next ten years they moved about in southern Spain, avoiding the conquering Almohades, but eventually settled in Fez in Morocco, where he studied at the University of Al-Karaouine. During this time, he composed his acclaimed commentary on the Mishnah in the years 1166–1168.[9]"

^ a b 1954 Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 18, p. 140.



First point is according to whom did this happen?  Did Maimonaides write of this account himself or is this the work of some fanciful historian?

If the above really did happen, perhaps it was because the Christian Crusaders had already set the bar when it came to dealing with conquered/liberated lands.  After all 1148 is quite some time after the
first Crusade 1096 - 1099; people weren't given the choice to choose exile. 

In any event notice how Maimonaides is supposed to have fled the Muslims of Africa to eventually go and live in Muslim Egypt 1168 and eventually worked for Muslim Royalty.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides_Synagogue

Maimonides was a 12th century rabbi, physician, and philosopher who was born in Córdoba, Spain in 1137 or 1138, and died in Egypt on December 12, 1204. When the Almohads from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile, Maimonides' family, along with most other Jews, chose exile.[5] After moving about southern Spain for ten years avoiding the Almohads, they moved first to Morocco and then eventually to Fustat, Egypt around 1168. There he studied in a Yeshiva attached to a small synagogue that now bears his name. He gained widespread recognition and became a court physician to Qadi al-Fadil, Grand Vezier to Saladin, after whose death he remained a physician to the royal family.


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by shamstar

Originally posted by Grotham

Yes, life was grand, just larrapin'.   Quote from Al-cordoby's post re Rambam:

"The Almohades from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[8] Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile. For the next ten years they moved about in southern Spain, avoiding the conquering Almohades, but eventually settled in Fez in Morocco, where he studied at the University of Al-Karaouine. During this time, he composed his acclaimed commentary on the Mishnah in the years 1166–1168.[9]"

^ a b 1954 Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 18, p. 140.



First point is according to whom did this happen?  Did Maimonaides write of this account himself or is this the work of some fanciful historian? 

Being from Al-Cordby's article, you will have to ask him.  I think it was fairly well sourced as any blind person can see when they read it.

If the above really did happen, perhaps it was because the Christian Crusaders had already set the bar when it came to dealing with conquered/liberated lands.  After all 1148 is quite some time after the
first Crusade 1096 - 1099; people weren't given the choice to choose exile. 

OK, blame it on the Christians if you must.  I  doubt many deny the historically recorded events that took place .. those that are true, at least. 

In any event notice how Maimonaides is supposed to have fled the Muslims of Africa to eventually go and live in Muslim Egypt 1168 and eventually worked for Muslim Royalty.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides_Synagogue

Maimonides was a 12th century rabbi, physician, and philosopher who was born in Córdoba, Spain in 1137 or 1138, and died in Egypt on December 12, 1204. When the Almohads from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile, Maimonides' family, along with most other Jews, chose exile.[5] After moving about southern Spain for ten years avoiding the Almohads, they moved first to Morocco and then eventually to Fustat, Egypt around 1168. There he studied in a Yeshiva attached to a small synagogue that now bears his name. He gained widespread recognition and became a court physician to Qadi al-Fadil, Grand Vezier to Saladin, after whose death he remained a physician to the royal family.


  And your point?  
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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by shamstar

Good post Well Wisher.  Nasty people try to re-write history to fit in with their agenda, but truth will always prevail.
 

 

The truth is, neither you nor a well wisher addressed the historical fact of muslim subjugation of non-muslims following the Islamic conquest of Spain. We need to be honest about acknowledging Islam is an evangelical religion in that it is compulsory to invite nonmembers into the faith. In addition, I’ll point out that neither Christianity nor Judaism have a jihad or dhimmitude analog which provides for the conquering and coerced / forced conversion of those conquered people, thank goodness. It makes no sense, at least to me, to dismiss islam’s historical record of dhimmitude as a means of oppressing the non-muslim. Similarly, to suggest that dhimmitude was an anything other than institutionalized stripping away of the rights of non-muslims is utterly contrary to contingent history. At no time in Islamic history was the dhimmi “protected”.
If you consider “protection” to include the infliction of forced conversion, misery and second-class status of non-muslims as the historical record clearly depicts, here’s a suggestion: I’ll propose we establish a dhimmi class in the West to which muslims are assigned. We’ll impose all the restrictions upon muslims which muslims historically and presently impose upon non-muslims in the Middle East.
You’re agreeable, right? Afterall, you will “protected”.

In the convoluted reasoning of Islamic doctrine, there is promotion (including actual doctrinal support), for Muslims to not only immigrate to Western democracies to pursue an aggressive missionary program, but also to:
• refuse to assimilate into the host country,
• expect special accommodations for their politico-religious peculiarities
• proclaim the superiority of their religion, while holding other religions in contempt
• demand privileged protections and considerations
• set up well-funded foundations to push an Islamic agenda by undermining democratic institutions through the guileful use of those same institutions.

We see this in the Islamic Middle East where rights of the dhimmi are explicitly second to the rights of Muslims. We see Christians and Buddhists in Indonesia stripped of their places of worship. We see Muslim violence and hatred for competing religions everywhere Islam gains a foothold. If Judaism or Christianity were never to have undergone enlightenment and reform, they too might well reject real progress, true acceptance and positive change for humanity.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 1:46pm
Here's the rest of the article from the OP.
 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The claim to tolerance, now much heard from Muslim apologists and more especially from apologists for Islam, is also new and of alien origin. It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam have begun to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesmen for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so doing. Indeed, in the old order, this would have been regarded not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty. How could one accord the same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it? This would be a theological as well as a logical absurdity.[2]

[edit] End of the Golden Age

With the death of Al-Hakam II Ibn Abd-ar-Rahman in 976, the Caliphate began to dissolve, and the position of the Jews became more precarious under the various smaller Kingdoms. The first major persecution was the 1066 Granada massacre, which occurred on December 30, when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. "More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day."[12] This was the first persecution of Jews on the Peninsula under Islamic rule.

 
 
Manuscript page by Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of Al Andalus, born in Córdoba. Arabic language in Hebrew letters

Beginning in 1090 the situation deteriorated further with the invasion of the Almoravids, a puritan Muslim sect from Morocco. Even under the Almoravids, some Jews prospered (although far more so under Ali III, than under his father Yusuf ibn Tashfin). Among those who held the title of "vizier" or "nasi" in Almoravid times were the poet and physician Abu Ayyub Solomon ibn al-Mu'allam, Abraham ibn Meïr ibn Kamnial, Abu Isaac ibn Muhajar, and Solomon ibn Farusal (although Solomon was murdered May 2, 1108). The Almoravids, were ousted from the peninsula in 1148; however, the peninsula was again invaded, by the even more puritanical Almohades. Under the reign of the Almohades, many Jews were forced to accept the Islamic faith; the conquerors confiscated their property and took their wives and children, many of whom were sold as slaves. The most famous Jewish educational institutions were closed, and synagogues everywhere destroyed.

During the reign of these Berber dynasties, many Jewish and even Muslim scholars left the Muslim-controlled portion of Iberia for the city of Toledo, which had been reconquered in 1085 by Christian forces.

Several Jewish scholars were involved in what became known as the School of Toledo, which produced some of the first translations into Latin of works from the Arab world, notably the works of Averroes and of the Jewish poet and philosopher Solomon Ibn Gabirol, known in Iberia as Avicebrón. Jews joined the armies of Alfonso VI of Castile and as many as 40,000 joined in the fight against the Almoravids, who also had large numbers of Jewish troops in their armies.

Even after Muslim rule had ended, the Iberian Jewish community remained the most important in the world (especially with the decline of the Academies of Babylonia). Scholars such as Maimonides, born in 1135, were major figures in Judaism, although Maimonides himself complained about the treatment of the Jews under Muslim rule. The major Jewish presence in Iberia continued until the Jews were forcibly expelled en masse pursuant to the edict of expulsion by Christian Spain in 1492 and a similar decree by Christian Portugal in 1497.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 2:25pm
I'm not going to even research this matter indepth, but from what you yourself have posted, I can see that Jewish soldiers helped a 'sect' of Islam (Sect meaning they had deviated from the main body of Islam) to persecute other Jews some 920 years ago.




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2010 at 2:30pm
Why is this abject hatred and need to conquer mankind in the name of Islam be honestly addressed by more than just a handful?  Why the need to always be right, that one religious belief is better than, superior to, perfect over others? 

Religion is religion, it is the picture its followers paint of it. Right now, in today's world, Islam does not have a good reputation or representation despite what the 'handful' maintain.  Actions do speak louder than words; words, when used to instill hate and incite violence, are morally wrong. 

Dang!  I would probably even welcome a Muslim riot if it was would help restore Islam to what it is touted to be ... peaceful in word and deed.  How convoluted is that?  LOL
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