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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Topic: Insults and threats from islamists
    Posted: 21 July 2010 at 9:46pm
Discrimination directed at minority religions is routine where Islamism prevails. Even in the “moderate” islamist state of Indonesia, Christians are routinely faced with threats and their places of worship are attacked. It’s a shame that islamists are so insecure in their own religion that they are compelled to assault those who represent such a threat to their politico-religious ideology. It’s rampant Christian’aphobia (and a phobia for competing religions) that causes Islamism such violent rage.    

Insults and threats from Islamic extremists at a Protestant prayer meeting

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Bekasi,-insults-and-threats-from-Islamic-extremists-at-a-Protestant-prayer-meeting-18994.html

Jakarta (AsiaNews) - A group of 500 Islamic extremists blocked Christians from the Huria Protestant Church (Hkbp) in a field where the Sunday service was taking place. The incident occurred last July 18 in the city of Pondok Timur in Mustika Jaya subdistrict, district of Bekasi (West Java).

Muslims blocked all routes to prevent Christians leaving the field and began to insult them, terrorizing them. The group of Protestant believers pray outdoors because their hall for religious functions was closed on the grounds that it was illegal.






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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 1:08am
Indonesia has the biggest churches in the world, as hundreds of billions of dollars are spent each year there by foreign missionaries

As that is the case, why would they insist on praying in an illegal area?

To answer your question, extremists exists in all religions

You don't judge a religion based on the acts of its extremists, but based on its mainstream teachings


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 5:17am
Here in Singapore, some christians are also irking the majority chinese whose traditional religion of buddhism and taoism are often ridiculed in churches, videotaped and posted on youtube.
 
And because of this few unscrupulous christians, the whole christian community are at the brunt of a many angry buddhist/taoist. Mind you, the government here is keeping a real short leash on the people so you only see the effect of this backlash in forums.
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take just what you need
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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Indonesia has the biggest churches in the world, as hundreds of billions of dollars are spent each year there by foreign missionariesAs that is the case, why would they insist on praying in an illegal area?To answer your question, extremists exists in all religionsYou don't judge a religion based on the acts of its extremists, but based on its mainstream teachings

Other than making things up as you go along, why would you claim that Indonesia has the biggest Churches in the world? It’s not true, obviously. Make a mental note that the largest Church in the world is the St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City, or perhaps the Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida, Brazil.

How do you know that hundreds of billions of dollars are spent there by Christian missionaries? Are you just making this up? Even if we concede for a moment that is true, are you threatened by that?

It seems your islamist co-religionists certainly are.


Construction of Two Churches Stopped in Indonesia

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100326/construction-of-two-churches-stopped-in-indonesia/index.html

JAKARTA, Indonesia (Compass Direct News) – An Islamic mob stopped construction of Santa Maria Immaculata Catholic Church in Citra Garden, West Jakarta earlier this month even as government officials in Yasmin Park, Bogor, West Java halted work on an Indonesian Christian Church (GKI) building.

On March 12, the same day GKI faced closure from government officials, protesters led by the United Islam Forum (FUIB) blockaded the entrance to Citra Garden, demanding that construction of the Catholic church building there cease. They based their demand on the claim that it did not have the approval of the local citizens, but the church had official permission and therefore has been under construction for several weeks.


30 churches threatened in Indonesia in past year

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=6578

Thirty Christian churches in the world’s largest Muslim nation have been burned down, attacked, or threatened with being closed by authorities, according to Theophilus Bela, the Catholic president of the Jakarta Christian Communication Forum. In the city of Bogor in West Java, thousands of Catholics have been prohibited from attending Mass at their parish on Christmas, Easter, and Ascension Thursday; instead, Mass has been held at the city hall.


I agree that extremists exist in all religions but where else on the planet do we routinely see the xenophobia displayed by islamists in connection with competing religions? Where else on the planet do we see laws enacted that establish one religion as the “state religion”, thus compelling belief in that religion and establishing state sponsored discrimination of competing religions? If you need a hint, I’ll direct you to any number of nations in the islamist Middle East.

I certainly have the right to judge a religion based upon the behavior of its adherents. To suggest otherwise is making apologies for or denying what the religion teaches. The panic that grips the islamist Middle East regarding competing religions is a product of the teaching of the religion. The xenophobia that grips the islamist world regarding co-existence with other religions is a product of the teaching of the religion.

Why is it that you think that the KSA bans all competing religions? Could it have something to do with the teachings of the politico-religious doctrine?
    
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shamstar  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:58am
Kadhim, the links you provide are biased to say the least and most likely to paint a distorted picture.  All the I.P addresses for the websites listed come from the USA.  What about independant links to confirm what they are alleging? 

Even if true, one should remember extremism and phobias exists everywhere, look at Sweden- 400,000 Muslims amongst a population of 7.5 Million people, so approx 5% Muslim, 5 mosques and 6 minarets later, they're rushing for a ban on any more and no, the call to prayer has never been played from any minarets there.


Edited by shamstar - 22 July 2010 at 10:59am
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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:05am
Originally posted by shamstar


Kadhim, the links you provide are biased to say the least and most likely to paint a distorted picture.  All the I.P addresses for the websites listed come from the USA.  What about independant links to confirm what they are alleging?

What independent links would you like?
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shamstar  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:55am
I'd be interested in looking at Reuters news or anything ouside the US which is not a blog.
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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by shamstar

I'd be interested in looking at Reuters news or anything ouside the US which is not a blog.

For a start, I’ll direct your attention here:
http://www.persecution.org/suffering//countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=6

As you are quite selective in your demands for news sources, I suspect you’re really choosing to ignore a wealth of data in the hope that ignoring islamist intolerance will make it go away.

Why did you ignore my earlier comments regarding state mandated religion in so much of the islamist Middle East?

I’m sure you are aware of the persecution faced by the Christian Copts in Egypt. Or do you believe that is all part of some vast conspiracy?
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Kadhim

[QUOTE=shamstar]

I’m sure you are aware of the persecution faced by the Christian Copts in Egypt. Or do you believe that is all part of some vast conspiracy?


I have been 7 times in Egypt. I have seen uncountable Churches in Cairo and Alexandria, and Christians wear huge golden crosses on their neck.
Our neighbors at the seaside are Christians and we are friendly to each other, have small talk almost every day. Also my husband has some Christian friends there, all of them nice and friendly. I have never had the feeling they are persecuted. They can even find pork meat in special shops, while it's forbidden for Muslims. They have holiday on their festivities, and coptic Christmas (6th of Januar) is a national festivities; even Muslims don't go to work on that day.
Even here in Germany we know a Christian family from Egypt. The husband is making a PhD and he is supported by the Egyptian state. Most of their friends are Egyptian Muslims. We have never talked about religion, but I suppose they wouldn't  make friendship with the same people who "persecute" them in their country, would them? And why don't they ask to stay in Germany as refugees if they are persecuted, and instead are saving money to build a big house in Egypt?
I know they must have a permission to build a church, but I suppose you must have a permission to build everything; or is it different in the USA? Can I take my bricks and build a mosque wherever I want?
Go to Egypt and make a picture yourself.

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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Nura


I have been 7 times in Egypt. I have seen uncountable Churches in Cairo and Alexandria, and Christians wear huge golden crosses on their neck.Our neighbors at the seaside are Christians and we are friendly to each other, have small talk almost every day. Also my husband has some Christian friends there, all of them nice and friendly. I have never had the feeling they are persecuted. They can even find pork meat in special shops, while it's forbidden for Muslims. They have holiday on their festivities, and coptic Christmas (6th of Januar) is a national festivities; even Muslims don't go to work on that day.Even here in Germany we know a Christian family from Egypt. The husband is making a PhD and he is supported by the Egyptian state. Most of their friends are Egyptian Muslims. We have never talked about religion, but I suppose they wouldn't  make friendship with the same people who "persecute" them in their country, would them? And why don't they ask to stay in Germany as refugees if they are persecuted, and instead are saving money to build a big house in Egypt?I know they must have a permission to build a church, but I suppose you must have a permission to build everything; or is it different in the USA? Can I take my bricks and build a mosque wherever I want?Go to Egypt and make a picture yourself.

Of course, I have no way of knowing if your claimed personal experiences are true or not.

There seems to be among islamists an inability to directly answer a specific question when that question reflects negatively on their politico-religious ideology.

Let's try again - do you believe the documented examples of islamist intolerance toward competing religions is a conspiracy?
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 1:01pm
No, probably most of them are true. Some others reflect a particular point of view. When I tell you that Muslims have some restrictions in Europe you always answer that it's us who try to force our religion on others, and Europe has been "very accomodating" to "Islamists" (your favourite word)...so why shouldn't we answer the same about your "specific questions"?

Of course, you cannot know if my claimed personal experiences are true or not. I have just reported what I have seen, you can believe it or not.
As for the fact you reported about Indonesia, yes, it's really, really bad. What should we Muslims of Why Islam do for the Christians in Indonesia, in your opinion?
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Kadhim
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 1:44pm
Actually, when you tell me that muslims have some restrictions In Europe I don’t always answer as you describe… like now. There certainly are (and in a more recent timeframe), some limited restrictions on muslims and the practice of their religion. Are you surprised at that? Do you understand that events in Madrid, London, Russia, etc., have a chilling effect on the people of Europe?

I think you need to take a step back and develop a sense of the world that is not entirely focused through the lens of Islamism. Much of Europe has a more recent history of secularism defined by the principle of separation of Church and State. That principle has allowed much of Europe to establish and maintain rule of law and governance established by term limits for legislators, legislators that are accountable to the voting block; essentially, the positive attributes defining secular democracy. Most of the world (Europe included), has long ago abandoned the anti-human dictates of totalitarian theocracies and religious rule. That’s because most of the planet has learned that theocratic totalitarianism must, by definition, favor the majority religion to the detriment of the minority religion(s). That’s precisely the dynamic we see across the islamist Middle East. Islamism being the state religion and thus forced upon all, serves to create the persecution of the minority religions.

You shouldn’t be surprised at the European hardening of attitudes toward Islamism when your co-religionists make demands for special dispensations and issue threats aimed at the very institutions that have allowed Europe to largely rise above petty tribal rivalries, religious hatreds and narrow minded world views that act as a yolk of oppression that afflicts so much of the islamist world.    

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:11pm

I know there are fairly a large number of believers such as Hindus and Buddhists living in many nations. They do not feel discriminated by the host nations and the host countries do not feel threatened by them. This is because believers in those religions are engaged only in the spiritual world, but not in replacing the constitution of the host nations by their strict religious law. This is a fundamental difference between Muslims and the rest of the believers in the world. If I am not mistaken, the goal of most (if not all) Muslims is to replace the constitution of the host nations by their strict Sharia law, which is incompatible with democracy that has been achieved by hundreds of years of bloody resistance against bureaucracy and theocracy. The Sharia law allows cutting off hands, honor killing, stoning, beheading and so on, which is against virtually all civilized laws in the world. To non-Muslims there is not much difference between Al-Qaida and moderate Muslims, because their goal is the same, imposing the cruel Sharia law wherever they go. The only difference is that Al-Qaida use more extreme ways to achieve the goal, while moderate Muslims use more moderate ways because they are not strong enough now. Unless Muslims give up this vicious political goal, their every movement would be always watched closely by non-Muslims with great suspicion, no matter how small their number is. That is what is happening now in the world. I am sorry for a minority of Muslims who are discriminated in their host nations, because of the political movement of the main stream Muslims.

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devd  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote devd Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Kadhim

Discrimination directed at minority religions is routine where Islamism prevails. Even in the “moderate” islamist state of Indonesia, Christians are routinely faced with threats and their places of worship are attacked. It’s a shame that islamists are so insecure in their own religion that they are compelled to assault those who represent such a threat to their politico-religious ideology. It’s rampant Christian’aphobia (and a phobia for competing religions) that causes Islamism such violent rage.    

There is a kernel of truth in what you said. Unfortunately your message is lost amongst the inflammatory, hyperbolic and antagonistic tone of your commentary. 

There are hate-filled bigots in every walk of life and many of them succeed at using religion as a tool to fuel the self-righteous indignation of the feeble-minded. These simpletons then run about participating in all manner of mayhem, all the while justifying their behavior with the twisted misrepresentations of those bigots. 

Nothing you have presented says anything about Islam, but says a lot about the fallibility of human beings. That is the kernel of truth you bring. Perhaps you should try building upon that rather than trying to start a fight?

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